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Post by bridie on Apr 13, 2006 9:12:53 GMT -5
So, here's a question for the group. I don't often post, but I feel that you guys are where I go for philosophical advice.
What do you consider to be cheating within a relationship? If you were to find out that your SO had been emailing somebody with "what if" fantasies or chatting with somebody and sharing sexual fantasies, is that cheating? How did we develop the hierarchy of cheating? A kiss vs. a blow job. Fondling vs. actual intercourse? Virtual sex and phone sex vs. real sex. Where do you draw the line? What about emotional cheating? Is it cheating just to share with another person how much you love them (and not the friendly kind)?
I am just curious to know your thoughts on this.
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Post by Jeff on Apr 13, 2006 11:25:28 GMT -5
What a great question! I have no idea how to answer it. But that never stopped me before!
First, do we want a definition that will tell a potential cheater where the line is or do we want one that will tell the cheatee (Is there a better word? My vocabulary hit a wall, sorry.) when she/he has been taken for a ride? I think we will have better luck on the first part of the question than the second, because if we have access to the cheater’s heart and mind in framing the criterion, then we get more information to work from. In fact, the essence of the cheatee’s problem is divining the heart of the SO. And I am not sure what objective things are more reliable than one’s own inner sense of such matters. Just to show how hard it is to frame things in the third-person look at these ideas:
1. Cheating is a betrayal of prior commitment.
Yes, but far too wide; it lets in cases we wouldn’t think of as cheating, e.g., violating any contractual agreement. It also fails to capture the widest (non-sexual) meanings of cheating, e.g., the sense in which we say that people who listen to NPR without contributing to public radio are cheating. That kind of cheating (free-riderism) takes place outside of a prior commitment. Still, cheating in a relationship does seem to be a betrayal, just a more specific kind.
2. Cheating always involves physical sexual interaction of some kind.
False. There are cases in which a cheater is in every important way intimate with a person outside the relationship, but is not having sex with them. (Perhaps the cheater even wants to have sex outside the relationship, but has a moral qualm about the deed.) That said, cheating OFTEN involves sexual activity of some kind. And I think there is a strong argument to be made for cheating being essentially about behavior. Can you cheat on your SO in thought alone? If so, then the possibility of thought crime appears in a relationship. (We can talk about this if you like, but in my experience sanctioning thought crimes in a relationship is always disastrous.)
3. Cheating should be defined wholly in terms of the emotional feelings of your partner.
This cannot be true because that gives the partner too much power. Suppose your partner feels betrayed when you make innocuous eye-contact with a waiter/waitress? Does she/he have a case? No—at least on the assumption that the eye contact really is innocuous! Still, this shows that the feelings of the cheater are also important in defining the term. They even seem to be more important, because the feelings of the cheatee can be wrong but the feelings of the cheater define her/his disposition toward both the SO and any new potential object of affection.
So, while I think there are a few things that you can say from the perspective of the cheatee, they are pretty big generalizations: You are betrayed and hurt by behavior (usually sexual) of your partner toward some new person. But this is singularly unhelpful in deciding whether you are being cheated on—after all, when should you feel betrayed? I would really like to hear what you guys think about such a test. Can you think of a criterion which a person could apply to determine whether they are being cheated on?
As I said, if we define things in terms of the cheater, then things are much easier. This looks pretty good to me:
4. Cheating is defined by the absence of the SO in your heart, thoughts, and actions when you are with someone outside the relationship by whom you might be tempted.
If you are a person on the verge of cheating you can simply invite the thought of your SO back into your head at any moment and ask: Is what I am thinking or feeling or doing right now likely to hurt her/him? If your answer is yes, and you do not immediately cease and desist in the behavior, you are a cheater.
(Everything here is just a guess. I don’t know anything about how to approach this question. But I think it’s very interesting!)
Jeff
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Post by Tyler on Apr 13, 2006 13:29:56 GMT -5
Jealousy is always a negative emotion, just like hate, racism, and sexism. It's a reaction to a fear. That being said, I think it's one I don't see an escape from. Personally, I have no instinctive jealous reaction at the idea of my wife, Tammy, having any level, depth, or type of relationship with another woman. I think that is the preferred case and I wish I felt that way about any physical / emotional relationship that she would have. Again, I'm back to my belief that love never causes pain. If I felt nothing but love for her, I'd feel joy at any joy she feels. Of course, I'm no where near that self-actualized and so still am capable of jealousy. I believe all jealousy springs from the instinctive urge to spread our seed as far and as wide as possible, and is thus just plain silly. Now, onto the cheating. Tammy feels this way not at all. She's pretty much a traditionalist where it comes to physical/emotional interaction with others. And, as I have consented to marriage, I've basically give her veto power over my actions. If I'm having an emotional relationship with someone and she says she thinks it's innappropriate, I stop it. Recently she expressed a dissatisfaction with pornography, so I got rid of all of that too. I've tried the old "if she knew everything I knew and was here to experience everything I'm experiencing would she be jealous" thing and it doesn't work. Sometimes perceptions are enough to cause another pain. Like I said, in a marriage, it really isn't up to the individual to decide, as they've abdicated their rights in this case.
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Post by bridie on Apr 13, 2006 14:23:11 GMT -5
I guess my views on cheating also stem from a recognition that our response to the notion are a direct result of jealousy and the feeling of being betrayed. I am not okay with Chris having sex with other people, but I do understand the impulse to want to. I think that while I would feel betrayed, jealous and confused if he randomly had sex with another person, it would be worse if that woman were somebody that he genuinely cared for. So, in that, I acknowledge that what really bothers me is the potential loss of this man from my life. In that way, Chris having sex with another person and Chris having an emotional affair with another person would feel the same to me. I think I would experience the same knot in my stomach, gut wrenching, can't eat or concentrate emotions if he cheated physically as I would if I discovered he was having an online (email, chatting, message board) relationship with another person. So, is that cheating? I don't know. But I think not actually having sex with another person and instead sending explicit emails about feelings of love and desire, are probably in the same camp.
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Post by Tammy B on Apr 13, 2006 15:04:18 GMT -5
Yes, bridie, I agree with you. I too have had the same experience with Tyler and two other women. These two instances have taken years to resolve. If I never felt a pang of jealousy or that knot in my chest I guess you could say I was self-actualized or just didn't give a damn about the other person. I feel when a person has to hide conversations and emails from their SO, then there is going to be hurt feelings when they are found out. When a persons desire for another person takes time, energy, and emotions away from your relationship then its cheating.
A very emotional topic.
Jeff, do you have a personal opinion instead of a philosophical opinion?
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Post by Betterout on Apr 13, 2006 15:13:12 GMT -5
"Personally, I have no instinctive jealous reaction at the idea of my wife, Tammy, having any level, depth, or type of relationship with another woman." Okay, but what about another man? Worse still, a man who could conceivably beat you up and steal your lunch money? "...love never causes pain." Wow. I wish I could share this belief, but I'm a long way from doing so. In my experience, love for another person actually amplifies into pain that which might otherwise be little more than a mild annoyance. Moreover, love tends to limit actions that might relieve pain. Love relationships are not always healthy relationships (and considering the whole of the world, we may even change 'not always' to 'rarely'), and one member's behaviors or lack thereof may inflict great pain on the other member--pain that cannot be lessened without inflicting futher pains. Now, you may say, "this is beside the point, Justin, I said that love never causes pain." Well, I really don't know what to say about that, other than to say that I doubt it. To me, love seems not to be a single monolithic emotion, but rather a complicated set of emotions that aren't always fully known even by the possessor but whose intensities can range wildly from one extreme to the other, often without noticeably outward symptoms (and don't forget those pesky inner symptoms that can be hard to recognize and identify). So, even in the absence of a clear cut case of refutation by example, I still find it hard to agree with you on this. Again, though, I sure wish I did. Oh, and Chris, stop having sex with everybody who happens to come down the pike! You're a married man, for pete's sake... Just kidding, of course. But, at the risk of inviting you to air dirty laundry here, what ARE your thoughts about this, Chris? Bridget has asked some really intriguing questions. Intriguing questions, Bridget!
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Post by chris on Apr 13, 2006 15:39:32 GMT -5
Any kind of love is all right.
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Post by jtmx1 on Apr 13, 2006 16:02:35 GMT -5
(Side note, not an attempt to hijack this lovely thread: Tammy, I try, so far as I am able, to conform my opinions to the facts and best results of argument. If I have strong emotions that are counter-rational, I educate my appetites. In this case, the opinions I typed are both the result of my reasoning about the issue and how I genuinely feel. My best answer is that I don't rightly know.)
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Post by bridie on Apr 13, 2006 16:19:29 GMT -5
Boy, let me get this straight: you think that loving another person the way you love your wife (in this case, me) or any variation of the way you love your wife (again, me) is okay. For instance, you having romantic and loving feelings for a friend while married and committed to me is okay. I know you've said to me that you would have no problems with me having sex outside of the relationship and that your jealousy would come from me loving and needing another person more than you. In other words, me leaving you for another person.
Do you see the potential danger in falling in love with another person while married/in a relationship. It could lead to leaving one person for another. That's where the jealousy ultimately comes from yes?
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Post by Tammy B on Apr 13, 2006 17:39:30 GMT -5
So, Jeff, you don't like the thread?
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Post by Tammy B on Apr 13, 2006 17:45:12 GMT -5
How about this, lobotomies and sterilizations for everyone. Then love/lust all you want.
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Post by Thanin on Apr 13, 2006 19:02:22 GMT -5
If you are a person on the verge of cheating you can simply invite the thought of your SO back into your head at any moment and ask: Is what I am thinking or feeling or doing right now likely to hurt her/him? If your answer is yes, and you do not immediately cease and desist in the behavior, you are a cheater. I think this is a good definition Jeff, but I'm not sure I completely agree. Hopefully my post might explain more on what I mean. Considering the last few posts by Bridget and Chris the original usefulness of this thread might be over (along with a few other things). But I’ll throw in something anyway. Tyler, I was so interested in your ‘Love never hurts’ philosophy that I actually tried it recently, but multiple friends rather than people I was in a relationship with. Under those circumstances it doesn’t work. Or it might work if you don’t open yourself up to being hurt and if you don’t implicitly trust other people. But it seems to me for actual love to occur, you must allow yourself the possibility to get hurt and you must give your full trust in another. Unfortunately I chose the wrong kind of people to love and I got burned by all of them. Oh well. Being naive can be fun but painful. To address your specific questions Bridget, I’d say that sharing sexual fantasies through email and chat isn’t cheating in itself. I’d also say it’s a sure bet that if the two people in question were alone together there’d probably be some soft humping going on, although this isn’t a guarantee. The real question is why does the SO feel compelled to share such fantasies and how detailed are they (the fantasies not the SO)? If these are just on the level of, “I hate doggie-style, what about you?” Then I wouldn’t count that as being a potential threat. But if the fantasies involve each other, like saying, “I bet you really like doggie-style huh? I’m very very very good at doggie-style by the way!” Then there’s probably a problem. And if a SO is Ever against you reading their emails, text messages, faxes, etc, then there’s also a problem. I say this because if my SO every wanted to read anything I wrote or was having written to me, I’d have zero problem with it. There’s Nothing I would be saying to another person that I wouldn’t be saying to my SO. And any relationship where that isn’t the case, in my opinion, isn’t a strong relationship. A kiss can be innocent. In many cultures people kiss when they see each other. And it’s true that we don’t really do that in this culture, but I think the fact that it’s done can demonstrate how the act itself isn’t necessarily a sign of evil. Again, I think intent plays a large roll. I’d say that a blow job and intercourse would 99.9% of the time be cheating. The only way it might not be is if done in the context of some art form (performance art, theater, etc). Virtual and phone sex are both 100% cheating (Yes, even in performance art and theater!). I’m not sure what’s meant by fondling. Are we talking about tickling too? Or backrubs? Or straight out squeezing titties and stroking cocks? But beyond all of this I’d say that cheating is 50% these activities and 50% what the people in the SO are comfortable with. And, while some of these activities may not be defined as cheating themselves, I think they can be warning signs for that possibility. Generally I think an SO should be sensitive enough to stop whatever activity they’re doing if it makes the person they love uncomfortable. Some things just happen though without us realizing it or out of our control. Like a large breasted woman jogging on the sidewalk. I’m sorry but my eyes are just gonna go to certain places because my male brain is wired that way. Does it mean I’m going to fuck this chick if I’m in a relationship? No, but I can understand my SO not really enjoying me looking at that. But there’s a difference between that and writing about how and who I’d like to fuck to another person.
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Post by bridie on Apr 13, 2006 22:39:57 GMT -5
Oh no no no. The boy and I have never totally agreed on these things. This isn't a problem we're working out. I think when we got married, we agreed to disagree but respect my philosophies...that's right. I won. Keep the thread alive.
Here's a question though. Would you want to know if your SO was cheating on you (either virtually or physically). I feel like it's a double slap in the face to discover these things months or years after the fact. It's going to hurt either way, but somehow knowing it happened and you were clueless adds the chump factor and that makes it worse.
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Post by Thanin on Apr 13, 2006 22:59:47 GMT -5
I would absolutely want to know.
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Post by Jeff on Apr 14, 2006 0:49:16 GMT -5
I really like the thread, and because it is so interesting I am doing my level best not to jinx it. As for Bridget's question: I hate to say this, but who told me about the infidelity would matter a great deal to me. I did not appreciate the way I found out about my grandmother's death. I wanted to hear that kind of news from my grandad, mom, dad, sister, or brothers. And no one else. I think that if Jenn were cheating on me, I would want to hear it from her first. After that, I would like to hear it from the person she is cheating with...kind of an honor thing. After that, I don't know...
Woody Allen divides people's lives into the miserable and the horrible. But the moment you find out your significant other is cheating your life becomes both.
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Post by Tyler on Apr 14, 2006 7:24:33 GMT -5
Here's a furthur question... What moral obligations does the "other person" have? Lets say you are a single guy/gal... is it morally wrong to have a physical/emotional connection with a married person? So far, all my reasoning has depended upon the contract and bind of marriage. Without making any vows, do you have a moral obligation to the other member of the marriage? Here's a test case: Jonah and Martha are married. Homer comes along and meets and... ...tells Martha she's all he's ever wanted. ...tells Martha she should leave her husband for him. ...tells Martha to 'watch the teeth, honey'.
In which case has Homer done something morally wrong?
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Post by Thanin on Apr 14, 2006 7:56:53 GMT -5
Here's a test case: Jonah and Martha are married. Homer comes along and meets and... ...tells Martha she's all he's ever wanted. ...tells Martha she should leave her husband for him. ...tells Martha to 'watch the teeth, honey'. In which case has Homer done something morally wrong? All of the above.
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Post by bridie on Apr 14, 2006 8:59:46 GMT -5
The first time I was cheated on (that I knew of) was when I was 22. The girl my boyfriend cheated on me with didn't know me. We had met briefly once, but that was it. When I found out that they had been together I remember telling her that while I thought she was a bitch and that I had no interest in knowing her, that my beef was with him. She didn't know me and owed me nothing in the way of respect or loyalty.
The second time I was cheated on I knew the person very well. In that scenario I felt betrayed by my friend and my lover. Our friendship should have dictated a certain amount of loyalty on my friend's part and if she really did care about me and my relationship she should not have steped over that line. She was as much at fault as he was. Again I am defining cheating as any emotional or physical side stepping that causes one to feel betrayed.
Homer's an asshole, but he had no moral obligations to Jonah. Unless he and Jonah were friends. Now, Martha's response to Homer is key in determining whether she's at fault.
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Post by Thanin on Apr 14, 2006 9:47:15 GMT -5
Are my moral obligations null and void if I steal from someone I don't know?
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Post by Tyler on Apr 14, 2006 10:07:14 GMT -5
Good call, David. Are you saying marriage equals ownership? I guess it does. You own that persons interactions.
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