Post by Jeff on Jul 24, 2005 1:17:46 GMT -5
Now seating Jesus, party of 13...
Post by rickus on 7/18/05 at 9:17am
This is unnecessarily long, so unless you've got some time to brutally murder, you may want to wait to read this.
The back story:
About two weeks ago I was in church and for the first time since I've attended services there we had Holy Communion, or the Eucharist, or the Sacrament or whatever you want to call it. You all know what I'm talking about.
Well, I'm sitting in church and Dr. Meyers says a little prayer, passes out several plates with loaves of bread on them (yes, actual bread), and that is passed out to the congregation. When the plate arrives at me, I simply take the plate and pass it to the usher who didn't see that I hadn't pulled any bread from the loaf. Then Dr. Meyers said something (I can't remember what, but it was only one word) and the congregation ate the bread.
Then Dr. Meyers passed out the wine to the ushers and they in turn passed it out to the congregation. When the tray of wine (yes, it was actually wine) got to me I took it and handed it to the usher whom I attend Bible study class with. She had seen that I didn't take any wine for myself, and she looked shocked.
"Don't you want to..." she whispered.
"No Ma'am." I replied, lifting the tray up for her to grab. Reluctantly she accepted it. She started to go the the next row of pews, then turned back to me and said, a little louder this time, "Are you sure?"
I was now a little embarrassed. "No. Thank you." I insisted.
A few minutes later Dr. Meyers said something else (I really wish I'd paid more attention), everyone drank, and put the empty vials in the pew back next to the Hymnal holder. I had always wondered what those little holes were for. In every church I'd been in up to now the grape juice was drank and the vial placed back in the tray.
The question:
I know it's hard to tell from the paragraphs above but I did pay a little attention to what was happening. When Dr. Myers was "prepping" the congregation for what was about to happen he said that it was "...open to everyone. What do I mean 'everyone?' I mean EVERYONE." He said the word loud and slowly, pausing for emphasis.
Well, I know he meant everyone. But I didn't think he meant me. I know I'm among friends, and that I don't really know where I stand in the world of religion is no secret to you. That is, I don't believe I'm a Christian. I don't believe most of the accounts of miracles in the gospels. I don't believe Jesus died for my sins. And I don't believe he rose from the dead. I don't believe Jesus was divine, (perhaps that should be Divine) at least not more than the rest of us.
That's not saying he didn't understand God better. I believe he did. I think he was a wise man, a kind man, and a rabble rouser. And I want to live the way he wanted us to... Well, for the most part.
So, should I have eaten the bread and drank the wine? Okay. I know the answer to that question. And the answer is no. Because I've never really tried to puzzle out for myself what the Eucharist means. Partaking in a ritual that you don't understand is (in my opinion) dangerous, misleading and disrespectful. So I'm left with two questions. What should I do the next time the tray comes to me? And what does Communion mean to a guy like me, who doesn't believe in the Divine Jesus? I am a member of this church and it feels VERY odd to be a member who isn't participating. I've been taught (I'm not sure when) that one must be "Saved" and that they must believe in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. I tend to dismiss people who would agree with this statement. But just because I disagree with them doesn't mean I should take up the cup. My gut tells me that Jesus was the kind of guy who would have said "Hey Rick, common man. It's my last supper. You not going to drink with me?" And of course I would. After all, it's called Communion.
The verses:
I've now done some reading in the Bible, and it looks like there are four references to the "last supper." First in Matthew:
26While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, 'take, eat; this is my body.' 27Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'
The editorial commentary in Katie's cool new Bible (courtesy of Amanda & Justin) says that in verse 26 'this is my body.' is symbolic of the community. I can kind of imagine Jesus tearing bread and saying 'Here. Hand that to Simon. Paul, here you go. Everybody have some?' He looks around then says with gusto, 'Eat.' Then gesturing to all of his disciples with arms open wide, 'This is my body.' Can you see that? I can.
Then in verse 28 'for this is my blood of the covenant' it says that this is not a new covenant. The commentary refers back to Exodus 24.7-8:
7Then he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, 'All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.' 8Moses took the blood and dashed it on the people, and said, 'See the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.'
From the commentary I'm kind of getting that Jesus is saying something like this: "This wine will symbolize the 'Blood Covenant'. In much the same way that the ox who was offered up as sacrifice to God in Sinai; as its blood was dashed onto the Israelites this wine is offered up for forgiveness of sin." Yeah. I guess...that's...what he's saying (please note lack of conviction). I try to keep in mind that this is the passover dinner of unleavened bread. It would only be natural for people, including Jesus and his disciples, to be thinking back to the days of Moses. But you know It doesn't sound like he's really talking to anybody other than his disciples. And it doesn't really sound like he's creating a new ritual here ether.
Mark's account is a little different:
22While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, 'take; this is my body.' 23Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. 24He said to them, 'this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'
Ok, the bread thing is the same. Body. Got it. Wine: "this is my blood of the covenant." Still cool there. But then we get to "which is poured out for many." Sticking with my earlier interpretation I would just add that: Like the blood that was dashed onto all the Israelites, the wine is shared with all the disciples.
Now we look at Luke, and I start to wonder again; should I, or should I not participate:
17Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, 'take this and divide it among yourselves; 18for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.' 19Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' 20And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, 'this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'
This account feels like Jesus is saying: "I am surrendering my body to be crucified. Eat this bread and think about that. The blood that is spilled during my crucifixion means our agreement with Moses is over. This wine, is like my blood being spilled. Take a drink. With that drink, a new covenant between you and God exists."
He sounds so much more Divine. He IS the sacrificial lamb. He IS dieing for humanity's sins. It is though HIS death that we attain salvation, even though he doesn't say what that "new covenant" is.
Of course there is no mention of the Eucharist in John's account of the last supper. But in First Corinthians Paul says this:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'this is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, 'this cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
When we look back to Matthew's 'Take, eat; this is my body.' then to the accounts in both Luke and 1 Corinthians; Jesus seems to go from someone who sounds like he's speaking about community to someone predicting his own demise. He says "Do this in remembrance of me." And here he actually sounds as though he wants to start a new ritual.
The line "Do this in remembrance of me," conjures up images of some sappy modern day cop drama where the endearing, family man, supporting actor gets shot. He's laying there in a pool of his own blood and he knows he's dying. So he says to his best buds, "Lissen Pauly, Matt... Whe's Mawk? Mawk, lissen. Wheneva you an da boys go down ta McGillocutty's fo-a cold one afta work." Enunciating the "r" in work causes him to cough hard and blood starts to trickle out the corner of his mouth. "I'd... I'd like it if ya could, drink one fa me. And know dat I'm witcha. Can ya do dat? Can ya do dat fa me?" They nod. He smiles. Then of course he coughs up a blood loogy and dies with his eyes still open. His tearful friends close his eyes, go have a cold one, and then avenge his death.
And of course, from the verses in 1 Corinthians, we can see that Paul's given the ritual to them, to then give to others. But Paul does a little something else that Matthew, Mark and Luke don't do and that is to supply us with a little commentary on why we do this, and how we should do it.
26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves.
The first time I read this I thought: "Oh. OK. Just don't do it in vain."
But after reading it several times over: Wow! I can only see one way of looking at it: "When you do this, you do it because you know that Jesus AKA God is coming back! If you do it in vain, there's going to be hell to pay! So make damned sure you believe Jesus is God and is coming back before you do it. Or there'll be hell to pay!!!"
The summation:
Part of the reason I've joined Mayflower Congregational is so that I can have a more cerebral study of the life and teachings of Jesus. And for fellowship in an environment that doesn't judge me for being me.
When Katie and I went to the "New Member Class," I asked Dr. Meyers if I could still be a member If I didn't believe in "Jesus Christ as my lord and savior." He grinned, saying that that phrase is a tool used by individuals to categorize people. He added, to my surprise, that he himself doesn't believe that Jesus was born to a virgin. He doesn't believe Jesus performed many of the miracles attributed to him. He doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, or that because he was crucified we are forgiven our sins. And yet he not only partook in the Eucharist, he orchestrated it. He believes he is a Christian. Why don't I?
I don't know if what occurred in Matthew is the most accurate telling of the events and Paul just added to it for people who needed more ritual in their religion. Or if Paul has it right and Matthew screwed it up, portraying it as "not that big a deal." This is one of the fundamental problems I have with Christianity. Even after studying the books that the religion is based on you are left with deep unanswerable questions.
And yet, I want to be a part of the community. I study the same book. I sing the same songs. I say the same prayers. And from talking to Dr. Meyers I have many of the same disbeliefs. Why too should I not then share the same Sacrament.
So I turn to you, my trusty ol' friends, who have never let me down when it comes to sharing your ever varied opinions. When next time the tray comes my way, what should I do? And what should Communion mean to me?
Post by rickus on 7/18/05 at 9:17am
This is unnecessarily long, so unless you've got some time to brutally murder, you may want to wait to read this.
The back story:
About two weeks ago I was in church and for the first time since I've attended services there we had Holy Communion, or the Eucharist, or the Sacrament or whatever you want to call it. You all know what I'm talking about.
Well, I'm sitting in church and Dr. Meyers says a little prayer, passes out several plates with loaves of bread on them (yes, actual bread), and that is passed out to the congregation. When the plate arrives at me, I simply take the plate and pass it to the usher who didn't see that I hadn't pulled any bread from the loaf. Then Dr. Meyers said something (I can't remember what, but it was only one word) and the congregation ate the bread.
Then Dr. Meyers passed out the wine to the ushers and they in turn passed it out to the congregation. When the tray of wine (yes, it was actually wine) got to me I took it and handed it to the usher whom I attend Bible study class with. She had seen that I didn't take any wine for myself, and she looked shocked.
"Don't you want to..." she whispered.
"No Ma'am." I replied, lifting the tray up for her to grab. Reluctantly she accepted it. She started to go the the next row of pews, then turned back to me and said, a little louder this time, "Are you sure?"
I was now a little embarrassed. "No. Thank you." I insisted.
A few minutes later Dr. Meyers said something else (I really wish I'd paid more attention), everyone drank, and put the empty vials in the pew back next to the Hymnal holder. I had always wondered what those little holes were for. In every church I'd been in up to now the grape juice was drank and the vial placed back in the tray.
The question:
I know it's hard to tell from the paragraphs above but I did pay a little attention to what was happening. When Dr. Myers was "prepping" the congregation for what was about to happen he said that it was "...open to everyone. What do I mean 'everyone?' I mean EVERYONE." He said the word loud and slowly, pausing for emphasis.
Well, I know he meant everyone. But I didn't think he meant me. I know I'm among friends, and that I don't really know where I stand in the world of religion is no secret to you. That is, I don't believe I'm a Christian. I don't believe most of the accounts of miracles in the gospels. I don't believe Jesus died for my sins. And I don't believe he rose from the dead. I don't believe Jesus was divine, (perhaps that should be Divine) at least not more than the rest of us.
That's not saying he didn't understand God better. I believe he did. I think he was a wise man, a kind man, and a rabble rouser. And I want to live the way he wanted us to... Well, for the most part.
So, should I have eaten the bread and drank the wine? Okay. I know the answer to that question. And the answer is no. Because I've never really tried to puzzle out for myself what the Eucharist means. Partaking in a ritual that you don't understand is (in my opinion) dangerous, misleading and disrespectful. So I'm left with two questions. What should I do the next time the tray comes to me? And what does Communion mean to a guy like me, who doesn't believe in the Divine Jesus? I am a member of this church and it feels VERY odd to be a member who isn't participating. I've been taught (I'm not sure when) that one must be "Saved" and that they must believe in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. I tend to dismiss people who would agree with this statement. But just because I disagree with them doesn't mean I should take up the cup. My gut tells me that Jesus was the kind of guy who would have said "Hey Rick, common man. It's my last supper. You not going to drink with me?" And of course I would. After all, it's called Communion.
The verses:
I've now done some reading in the Bible, and it looks like there are four references to the "last supper." First in Matthew:
26While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, 'take, eat; this is my body.' 27Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'
The editorial commentary in Katie's cool new Bible (courtesy of Amanda & Justin) says that in verse 26 'this is my body.' is symbolic of the community. I can kind of imagine Jesus tearing bread and saying 'Here. Hand that to Simon. Paul, here you go. Everybody have some?' He looks around then says with gusto, 'Eat.' Then gesturing to all of his disciples with arms open wide, 'This is my body.' Can you see that? I can.
Then in verse 28 'for this is my blood of the covenant' it says that this is not a new covenant. The commentary refers back to Exodus 24.7-8:
7Then he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, 'All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.' 8Moses took the blood and dashed it on the people, and said, 'See the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.'
From the commentary I'm kind of getting that Jesus is saying something like this: "This wine will symbolize the 'Blood Covenant'. In much the same way that the ox who was offered up as sacrifice to God in Sinai; as its blood was dashed onto the Israelites this wine is offered up for forgiveness of sin." Yeah. I guess...that's...what he's saying (please note lack of conviction). I try to keep in mind that this is the passover dinner of unleavened bread. It would only be natural for people, including Jesus and his disciples, to be thinking back to the days of Moses. But you know It doesn't sound like he's really talking to anybody other than his disciples. And it doesn't really sound like he's creating a new ritual here ether.
Mark's account is a little different:
22While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, 'take; this is my body.' 23Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. 24He said to them, 'this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'
Ok, the bread thing is the same. Body. Got it. Wine: "this is my blood of the covenant." Still cool there. But then we get to "which is poured out for many." Sticking with my earlier interpretation I would just add that: Like the blood that was dashed onto all the Israelites, the wine is shared with all the disciples.
Now we look at Luke, and I start to wonder again; should I, or should I not participate:
17Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, 'take this and divide it among yourselves; 18for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.' 19Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' 20And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, 'this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'
This account feels like Jesus is saying: "I am surrendering my body to be crucified. Eat this bread and think about that. The blood that is spilled during my crucifixion means our agreement with Moses is over. This wine, is like my blood being spilled. Take a drink. With that drink, a new covenant between you and God exists."
He sounds so much more Divine. He IS the sacrificial lamb. He IS dieing for humanity's sins. It is though HIS death that we attain salvation, even though he doesn't say what that "new covenant" is.
Of course there is no mention of the Eucharist in John's account of the last supper. But in First Corinthians Paul says this:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'this is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, 'this cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
When we look back to Matthew's 'Take, eat; this is my body.' then to the accounts in both Luke and 1 Corinthians; Jesus seems to go from someone who sounds like he's speaking about community to someone predicting his own demise. He says "Do this in remembrance of me." And here he actually sounds as though he wants to start a new ritual.
The line "Do this in remembrance of me," conjures up images of some sappy modern day cop drama where the endearing, family man, supporting actor gets shot. He's laying there in a pool of his own blood and he knows he's dying. So he says to his best buds, "Lissen Pauly, Matt... Whe's Mawk? Mawk, lissen. Wheneva you an da boys go down ta McGillocutty's fo-a cold one afta work." Enunciating the "r" in work causes him to cough hard and blood starts to trickle out the corner of his mouth. "I'd... I'd like it if ya could, drink one fa me. And know dat I'm witcha. Can ya do dat? Can ya do dat fa me?" They nod. He smiles. Then of course he coughs up a blood loogy and dies with his eyes still open. His tearful friends close his eyes, go have a cold one, and then avenge his death.
And of course, from the verses in 1 Corinthians, we can see that Paul's given the ritual to them, to then give to others. But Paul does a little something else that Matthew, Mark and Luke don't do and that is to supply us with a little commentary on why we do this, and how we should do it.
26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves.
The first time I read this I thought: "Oh. OK. Just don't do it in vain."
But after reading it several times over: Wow! I can only see one way of looking at it: "When you do this, you do it because you know that Jesus AKA God is coming back! If you do it in vain, there's going to be hell to pay! So make damned sure you believe Jesus is God and is coming back before you do it. Or there'll be hell to pay!!!"
The summation:
Part of the reason I've joined Mayflower Congregational is so that I can have a more cerebral study of the life and teachings of Jesus. And for fellowship in an environment that doesn't judge me for being me.
When Katie and I went to the "New Member Class," I asked Dr. Meyers if I could still be a member If I didn't believe in "Jesus Christ as my lord and savior." He grinned, saying that that phrase is a tool used by individuals to categorize people. He added, to my surprise, that he himself doesn't believe that Jesus was born to a virgin. He doesn't believe Jesus performed many of the miracles attributed to him. He doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, or that because he was crucified we are forgiven our sins. And yet he not only partook in the Eucharist, he orchestrated it. He believes he is a Christian. Why don't I?
I don't know if what occurred in Matthew is the most accurate telling of the events and Paul just added to it for people who needed more ritual in their religion. Or if Paul has it right and Matthew screwed it up, portraying it as "not that big a deal." This is one of the fundamental problems I have with Christianity. Even after studying the books that the religion is based on you are left with deep unanswerable questions.
And yet, I want to be a part of the community. I study the same book. I sing the same songs. I say the same prayers. And from talking to Dr. Meyers I have many of the same disbeliefs. Why too should I not then share the same Sacrament.
So I turn to you, my trusty ol' friends, who have never let me down when it comes to sharing your ever varied opinions. When next time the tray comes my way, what should I do? And what should Communion mean to me?