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Post by Jeff on Feb 26, 2006 4:00:21 GMT -5
Okay, maybe we can do this every few weeks. I'll post a nub of an idea for a song, and anyone who wants to write a song with me can do it.
OR
We could do it Chris' way, and you post some moment you want theme music for and Ryan, Chris, Justin, or I will write you a little tune, which you may or may not like.
In anycase we are sharing our creative juices with each other...did that sound too sexual? ("Fluids" would have been worse.)
For about a week now I've just been loving on my guitars. I wish I could play better, but alas poor Yorick.
Anyway, I finally just hit the record switch even though I never played the same thing the same way twice. And I got a little sumpin.
I'll post the snippet to savefile.com in a moment. What I wanted to ask you for was lyrical ideas. If you give me something that I use you'll have co-written a song with me and we will be bonded for life. (And you won't even have to burn or cut yourself!)
Right now the song is called "Edge of Zion" but that is a strictly provisional title. It's about a couple who are for all intents and purposes a terrorist organization. They go around dropping bombs on people and causing pain in the interests of improving the world. They are assholes, quite like me, in fact. So the comparision is between the terrorist heart and the heart of any raging moralist. That is general enough to include a lot of different ideas. My thought is that it is a couple who is doing this. And part of the reason they like to generate ill will is because it binds them together, just like for the terrorists. So, if you are interested explore the idea and give me some lyrical content.
The song is rather slow and pumping. I am playing in drop D, so if you want to record a guitar part or something feel free. 70bpm, though I might double it up at the end 140bpm, of course. I am switching between major and minor using the old NIN trick which you'll know when you hear but has no name. (I wish all the little musical tricks that musicians knew had names. It would sure make communicating easier.) Feel free to add or suggest anything at all. Drop a part. Add a part. Whatever.
More in a sec...
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Post by Jeff on Feb 26, 2006 4:52:25 GMT -5
www.savefile.com/files/7307666 This is just a little snippet of the outro. Everything is provisional. The samples are bad. The guitar playing is bad. Everything will change. But this will give you a general feel. It's only 8 counts long, but I repeated it four times. The guitar is in its uneffected state. All the samples are pure that way. I haven't cleaned anything or made any parts based on the samples. Here is a part listing, though we will definitely change this too. 1. GTR 2. Acoustic bass 3. slow arp 4. keyboard playing squares on the beats, gives chord structure 5. basic drum 6. tabla 7. kiowa drum--deep down in the mix. We could cut it for clarity.
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Post by Jeff on Feb 26, 2006 5:05:03 GMT -5
Here's a picture for inspiration. It's by a French painter and graphic artist named Odilon Redon, an artist I know know next to nothing about, other than the fact that he did this and it's called The Crying Spider:  PS I didn't want to post more of the song, because I want to it to change in response to your ideas, like a real collaboration. |
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Post by Jeff on Feb 26, 2006 5:19:20 GMT -5
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Post by Jeff on Feb 26, 2006 7:51:41 GMT -5
It occurs to me that almost every member of this group is a better GTR player than I am. So here is the same loop effected--with probably too many parts and effects (sorry!). Write your own GTR loop if you like and send it my way. www.savefile.com/files/8207978 PPS I think I can finally go to sleep now... |
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Post by Tyler on Feb 26, 2006 9:20:11 GMT -5
I suggest very strongly that somewhere in the song you include the words, spoken very emphatically, "testicle sweat!".
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Post by jtmx1 on Mar 3, 2006 18:48:52 GMT -5
Not much response here, except for Tyler's joke. (That was a joke right?) Here are the lyrics to the song. I hope to finish at least a rough draft this weekend. Justin will know the basic tune, but I am bending it to my own purpose. I really think this could be good...
RAINBOW IN A CLOUD
(Whispered:
He is determined to put an End,
An End to all Flesh
He put His Rainbow in a Cloud:
An End to all Flesh)
When God shut Noah in the grand old ark
He put His Rainbow in a Cloud
When thunders rolled and the sky went dark
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
Well it looks like the sun will not shine anymore
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
Away down yonder in the burning sand
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
When he speaks to children of a Promised Land
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
Well it looks like the sun will not shine anymore
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
Well, we’re going down into the Lion's Den
Trying to find a Rainbow in a Cloud
There is no Proof nor any Chosen Men
There’s just a Rainbow in a Cloud
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
Well it looks like the sun will not shine anymore
God put His Rainbow in a Cloud
PS I'll post the little loop I'm working on in a few minutes.
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Post by jtmx1 on Mar 3, 2006 22:31:03 GMT -5
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Post by Tyler on Mar 4, 2006 9:56:24 GMT -5
TESTICLE SWEAT IN A CLOUD
He is determined to put an End,
An End to all Flesh
He put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud:
An End to all Flesh
When God shut Noah in the grand old ark
He put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
When thunders rolled and the sky went dark
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
Well it looks like the sun will not shine anymore
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
Away down yonder in the burning sand
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
When he speaks to children of a Promised Land
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
Well it looks like the sun will not shine anymore
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
Well, we’re going down into the Lion's Den
Trying to find a Testicle sweat in a Cloud
There is no Proof nor any Chosen Men
There’s just a Testicle sweat in a Cloud
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
Well it looks like the sun will not shine anymore
God put His Testicle sweat in a Cloud
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Post by Jeff on Mar 4, 2006 18:43:20 GMT -5
Okay, here is a vocal and organ test through one verse and chorus. I dropped the GTR. This is just a preminary thing, but I would like Justin to preview it since I used a gospel hymn from our youth. Let me know what you think. This is probably all the time I have for music this weekend. www.savefile.com/files/5253944 PS I was having a little touble with savefile.com, so I also uploaded the mix to the yahoo account. It's called rainbowmix.mp3. PPS Justin, Ryan, and Chris: I left a four bar vamp of the verse structure at the end of the file so you could loop it and make a guitar track if you want. |
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Post by Tyler on Mar 4, 2006 20:21:30 GMT -5
ha HA!...
organ test...
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Post by Jeff on Mar 5, 2006 1:51:06 GMT -5
Same song but a much improved mix. If you haven't DLed the last one and you want to hear the song, get this one. www.savefile.com/files/1795022 Also in the yahoo briefcase as rainbowbettermix.mp3 PS I finally did a trick I've always wanted to try but never have. I created a two mixes of the song with different instruments and slightly different parts--not the vocal just the music--and put one in each ear. I created a third mix with drum and incidental percussion only and put it right in the middle. I think it sounds pretty good and slightly strange. PPS I really like this subverted reading of the message of the song. When I was a kid, it was sung by my mom and her sisters as a simple song of hope. But I changed it to a description of the necessary obscurity of any vision of God. PPS I cut half the vamp off the end of this one. If you want to practice a GTR part or something, get the other one. |
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Post by Betterout on Mar 6, 2006 13:07:39 GMT -5
Wow, it seems like I haven't been to the board in ages. I've just been so freakin' busy. Anyway, since Jeff has mentioned me by name a few times in the posts above, I figured I owed it to him to at least acknowledge this thread.
Jeff, I've read your ideas in doing this, and I've heard your drafts. But I feel that I couldn't actually imagine myself contributing to this project. It's not that I don't like the way the song is headed; I really do. But more than anything, it just points out how radically different our approaches to song writing really are. With this particular project, my gut instinct is not to add more stuff to your already fleshed out body, but to remove things. In my humble opinion, the song already sounds more than songy enough. So, for my buck, I'd drop it all down to its barest pieces (no drums first and foremost, as they overpower the underlying structure). Then, I'd drop all the affected key tracks, and possibly even the vocals. If there's anything left, I'd start from there. If there's nothing left, then I'd ask myself, 'okay, what is absolutely essential in this song?' Do you start from the vocal melody or recurring theme? Do you start from the chord progression? Do you start with a particular flourish that brings other fundamental elements together? That's the territory from which I'd begin.
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Post by jtmx1 on Mar 6, 2006 17:04:21 GMT -5
Hey Justin,
We do write very differently. I like to get about 20 ideas for a particular section before I start to cull the herd. I do agree that when the opening creative salvo is finished that the culling must be done. I also agree with you that the rhythm of the song can be successfully communicated with a less complicated drum track. Besides that the vocals are, as they almost always are in my case, place holders for the real thing.
I suppose that someday I should actually try to finish a song. I never do this. I get my drafts down and move on. But I've done almost no real production work. If I were going to finish a piece I would do live recording and lots of vocal takes...really go for the best possible sound. But since I've never done this then I can't really show you guys what a final draft of one of my songs would be like. Maybe I should do this for a least two or three songs so you (and I) would know if I am any good at it.
But what I was trying to do here was to write a song out loud and with as much collaboration as possible. Before you commented all I got was testicle sweat. Still, I was pleased to see that you could discern something interesting in the differences between our writing processes. I did wander how much of it was artificial since if we were working in the same room I could just look up at you for a quick thumbs up or down.
As for how I would refocus the song, I think the gospel angle stays, which means that I am sticking with an organ somewhere in the instrumentation. That last draft used almost all organs which I quite liked. The screeching sound needs to be dropped, even though I like it. It kinda reminds me of art of noise stuff which was cool back in the day--either that or Naughty Naughty by John Parr, which was not cool except as a joke. I also want to keep the vocal harmony. I think 75bpm is about the right tempo. i also really like the chords on the chorus.
The lyrics are fluid too. I am especially displeased with the third verse.
But I am going to keep working on it. If you would consider recording a guitar part, we could experiment with different kinds of instrumentation. I still have my old guitar part, of course, but I am keeping much of it out of your ears so that you can have more freedom to work your magic.
Jeff
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Post by jtmx1 on Mar 6, 2006 19:12:03 GMT -5
Justin, www.savefile.com/files/5696161 (also in the yahoo account) This isn’t exactly the simplification that you are looking for, but it’s close. After I figured the gospel angle, I did a quick recording of just me playing and singing with a very basic drum track. I thought that I’d post this since you wanted something much less messed with. This is just a single wurly, basic drums, and two vocal passes, one lead and one harmony. There is one rub between the vocal line and the wurly that comes at the beginning. It occurs on the word “old.” This can be solved in a couple of ways. I’ll probably just attenuate the note. Now, what I usually do after making a recording like this one, is isolate the bass notes in the keyboard part. Then I play with them till they make sense on their own and assign a new instrument to them. Next I isolate the chords in the right hand keyboard part and look for possible arps and melodies. These get their own instrumentation. Generally I try to destroy all the chords, converting them to melodies or just passing notes. The reason for this is that I just hate music that sounds blocky and chordal. I like counterpoint and fugue, so I try to make little melodies out of everything. This is simply a personal preference that relates to why I quit recording in 1992. But I can change back to my old ways if they improve the treatment of this song. Question: Suppose you had this bit and that’s all you knew about the song. You could play it on the keyboard and sing it whenever you wanted. What would your next step be? Jeff |
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Post by Thanin on Mar 6, 2006 19:38:17 GMT -5
Jeff, I know you're looking for a Justin response, but after listening to this most recent music of yours, I just wanted to say something. I know you like your music to sound reminiscent of its influences, but which is more important: for your music to sound the way you think it should, or for it to sound the way it actually should.
I know I've told you this before, but I must say it again. Don't live in your influences. When you mire your art in what came before, you don't progress. You might think you're giving homage to the past, but you're really just dredging up the work of others at the expense of your own. Stop caring so much about what got you to where you are musically. In your best, most true music, that will happen on it's own to far better effect. And most of all, Stop Thinking so much about it!
You use a self-acknowledged, self-defeating defense of your own music, claiming how you're a poor excuse for a musician. This protects you from ever having to expand beyond what even you see as mediocre; adding on that how you insist this is just your side project. Stop doing this too. Being able to play an instrument is a gift that those who don't possess envy and it's just insulting to use it with such carelessness. I've heard your songs when you abandon how you think they should go. It works. Why insist on this ponderous process when you've done far better in ways that work? Jeff, I think you know how to get your music to work, you just won't let yourself follow through.
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Post by Jeff on Mar 6, 2006 21:05:49 GMT -5
David,
Thanks for your heartfelt words; I know they are truly meant. But I think you’ve got me all wrong. I do not like my music to sound like its influences. I am trying to find my voice. I think I may have found it when I was a kid, but if my old piano and voice sound is my voice, then I’m not really interested in making a lot of music. I don’t like that sound, and I’ve been trying to come up with something new since 1999, when I started recording again.
I disclose my influences, but mainly as a way of being honest. I don’t believe that it is possible to work without influences. There is no such thing as completely unhinged creativity, just as there is no view from nowhere. Perspective means occupying a definite place, and that includes a place in history.
Still, I have no new voice. The recording I did between 1986 and 1990 suggested to me that the best I would ever be able to pull off was an 8th rate Billy Joel interpretation. I had better things to do. I tried to find a way around that impasse. I experimented with modern soul and electronica, but nothing really worked out. I love the sonic possibilities of synthesizers, but I don’t much care for how they have been used by pop musicians.
So, I am still just wandering around trying out new sounds and seeing if anything fits. Last year I experimented with melodies from Dire Straits to Phillip Glass—I know my voice is closer to the latter.
These days, I experiment with guitars and rhythm more than I experiment with keyboard stylings. I figure that I am about as good at the keyboard as I’ll ever be. I am getting better on the guitar, but my progress has been distressingly slow. I actually think that I am a rather proficient drum programmer. And at times I am so proud of my drum tracks that I put them way too forward in my mixes. I am also pleased with my instrumentation skills. I think I am able to match tones pretty well, a skill I liken to a sense of color in a painter.
My songwriting has not improved a great deal from the time I was 16. I’ve learned a lot more about harmony and other synchronic structures, but the diachronic aspect of songwriting—which is probably its essence—is a lot less interesting to me. Again, this comes from my early days when I sounded a lot like Billy Joel and Barry Manilow. I am just not as interested in this aspect of music these days. Arrangement in almost any sense that does not fall back into pop music formula is still interesting however. Last year I was experimenting with playing in two time signatures at the same time, usually 4/4 and 6/8. I actually made several math problems out of songs like “Tiny Fires.” But this kind of intellectualizing isn’t so interesting either.
In all these skills and deficiencies there is still no single unifying strand which I can point to and say, “That is me!” I am still feeling for it, though I sense that I probably need to devote less time to music since it is clearly not paying off for me. When I heard The Arcade Fire’s last CD I thought that I could have been a part of the process that produced a CD with that kind of sound—provided that Justin and I had been working together everyday. I think I sound a bit like the lead singer of the band Keane, but Jenn tells me I sound more like the lead singer of the band White Tiger, which makes me want to abandon music all over again. I think I can write a pretty good story song, but I despise them. I guess I am somewhere between Skinny Puppy and Kenny Rogers, though I have no idea what that means.
Anyway, thanks for your comments. I’ll keep trying new things. This week I am experimenting with discrete mixes for each ear. I don’t know what I’ll be trying out next week or tomorrow for that matter.
Jeff
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Post by Guest Justin on Mar 6, 2006 21:56:38 GMT -5
Jeff,
Well, you know what I'm going to say. I love the redux! I think the Wurly tone is especially cool. But if I were you, I think I'd still drop the drums. The left-hand line already keeps the rhythm flowing well enough to stand on its own, at least at the beginning. Some egg-shakers might be needed to keep it organic, and maybe even a slowly added tambourine on the 2 and 4 as the intensity builds (strike the tambourine--especially one with a skin--with brushes as it rests on carpet, to give it a quick decay, and just enough of an attack to drive the point home). Some subtle guitar feedback could find its way into the mix at the chorus, growing more ferocious and growling as the song wraps itself up. Hey, and why not hit the expected high note on "rain" at 0:46? This is how I'd do it, at least.
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Post by jtmx1 on Mar 7, 2006 1:46:53 GMT -5
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Post by Guest Justin on Mar 7, 2006 12:57:07 GMT -5
Jeff,
Of course you shouldn't have to do it my way, whatever my way may be. I'm just explaining how I would go about doing it. You know me, I'll always prefer mic'ing muscle and blood to mousing around all day. I like things pretty sparce for the most part. But even though I generally tend to add parts only when they're needed to get some point across, I'm also not averse to duplicating an entire track with only the slightest modification in order to bring out comparative textures. That's why I'm really looking forward to hearing your binaural project for this song. It's weird, Jeff. You and I both like hymns, but I think we like them for different reasons. Half the time, I just like 'em, in terms of the music or lyric or whatever. I get the impression you like the idea of motivated artistic expression of religious experience, but rebel against the traditional social components attached to them. Here are my favorite hymns, in alphabetical order:
Amazing Grace
Great Is Thy Faithfulness
How Great Thou Art
In the Garden
Lift Every Voice and Sing
There's within My Heart a Melody
What do you think of these particular hymns, bro? I like most of them for different reasons, but I think they're all top notch.
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