Post by Betterout on Sept 16, 2005 15:12:24 GMT -5
The following discussion is posted without permission by one of the participants. I don't think the other will mind, but I'll take it down if he does.
Jeffrey says:
Really wish I could be a tuesday night's concert
Justin says:
i'm hoping it will be as good a show as the other time i've seen them.
Jeffrey says:
I imagine that it will be great.
Jeffrey says:
How ever it turns out, that is what I'll imagine
Justin says:
i just hope that they focus more on their older stuff. the last album was a real dud
Justin says:
i'm surprised, but they've even been announcing the show on the radio!
Jeffrey says:
Have they released a CD better than Keep it like a secret?
Jeffrey says:
hard to imagine...
Justin says:
i really think 'there's nothing wrong with love' is a phenomenal album. i probably like it a little better than 'secret.'
Jeffrey says:
wow
Jeffrey says:
I'll have to pirate it! AARG
Justin says:
but the latter is definitely more accessible, slicker, and just packed to the hilt with great songs.
Jeffrey says:
I listened to it again this week
Justin says:
i think i've played you several songs from it.
Jeffrey says:
Still great. A little piece of greatness out there just hanging out. ... I remember the song about the abandoned love
Jeffrey says:
I liked it a lot, though I've forgotten the titme
Jeffrey says:
title
Justin says:
twin falls
Jeffrey says:
great title
Justin says:
the images of childhood in that song are great.
Jeffrey says:
It has about three meanings
Justin says:
exactly!
Justin says:
Christmas, twin falls, idaho is her oldest memory
she was only two
it was the first time she felt blue
Cafeteria, harrison elementary
beneath a parachute
i saw her without shoes
7up i touched her thumb and she knew it was me
although she couldn't see
unless of course she peeked
My mom's good she got me out of twin falls, idaho
before i got too old
you know how that goes
Justin says:
that's where she still was the summer she turned 17
in 1983, three weeks after me
last i heard was she had twins or maybe it was three
although i've never seen
but that don't bother me
Jeffrey says:
What CD is Velvet Waltz on? I like that tune, too.
Justin says:
perfect from now on.
Justin says:
not such a great record. i really like about 4 of the songs--and there aren't very many--but overall, i'd say the versions of some of those same songs on 'live' are much better.
Jeffrey says:
That's such an ambivalent song.
Jeffrey says:
The speaker's twin, right?
Jeffrey says:
Two selves.
Justin says:
twin falls?
Justin says:
or velvet waltz?
Justin says:
i assume you mean the former.
Jeffrey says:
right TF
Justin says:
yes, it's very ambivalent. in fact, the last line really bothers me. fortunately, the time i saw them in denton, he changed it to 'only in my dreams,' which was much more humane.
Jeffrey says:
More humane, but I think the other line is more powerful. And it really brings the rest of the song into a stark relief. We really do have this tendency to romanticize that obscures our own failures. I guess I like it either way, though
Justin says:
i hear you, but i don't like it when he comes off like an asshole. it works for some lyricists, but i don't think so for him.
Justin says:
there's another song on that album with equally off-putting, potentially sexist lyrics.
Justin says:
maybe even two.
Jeffrey says:
When Randy Newman says I he could be talking about anyone in the world. But not Martsch, He does seem to be much more autoboigraphical
Justin says:
i think so, too. and many of his songs are accusatory of some 'you.'
Justin says:
in those cases, i usually get the feeling that he's talking about me, the listener.
Justin says:
"do you *ever* think about it?" meaning, do you even listen to the lyrics of the songs you like?
Jeffrey says:
He does collect people under the label. Second person plural, a lot. You were right, for instance.
Jeffrey says:
We referenced the same song, where he uses you collectively in two different ways
Jeffrey says:
Interesting
Justin says:
well, that song is a song where he really only sings his point of view, saying "This is right, This is wrong," and yet he uses the word 'you' quite frequently in it.
Justin says:
doesn't say 'i' at all, in fact.
Jeffrey says:
I know
Justin says:
check these out:
Jeffrey says:
But I thought he said You were right, refering to a sort of personified Rock Music. Then at the end, as you say, he seems to be addressing the audience
Justin says:
Since my fling with you
time went from popping off three times a day
to popping off three times a week
and it takes me a long time
to come to the memory of us
One week later there's Melody
doing what i always waited for
and i didn't stop her
but i didn't lead her on
Jeffrey says:
Changing the referent of his plural you
Justin says:
so, who's the 'you' who gets it wrong in saying, "everything's going to be all right?" bob marley???
Justin says:
personified rock music?
Justin says:
the audience?
Jeffrey says:
Rock Music
Jeffrey says:
Monolithic
Jeffrey says:
It is a single confused voice
Jeffrey says:
Heck, I could be wrong
Justin says:
i think you're right, that's the idea i always got from it, but it's a little ambiguous.
Jeffrey says:
sure
Jeffrey says:
Those lyrics are disturbing
Justin says:
well, definitely carnal.
Jeffrey says:
Lazy Love
Jeffrey says:
His very conception of time is something someone else is responsible for
Justin says:
It happens all the time, this lazy love of mine.
Jeffrey says:
How can you blame him for falling into the arms of another
Jeffrey says:
He was defeated by space and time
Jeffrey says:
And he never even took up arms!
Jeffrey says:
The whole thing seems like a justification
Justin says:
the fact that we're talking about his lyrics is sign that rock music isn't all just jocular bravado and brainless sex references. so, i'm glad 'it' is right every now and again.
Jeffrey says:
Blame and responsibility always in the back ground.
Jeffrey says:
me too
Justin says:
here's a great line from another song from 'there's nothing wrong with love':
Justin says:
When you see a documentary and know the outcome
and that it's fucked
you still hope hitler will blow up
and that kennedy will duck
Justin says:
oh, by the way, that first song is called 'Fling' and this last one is called 'The Source.'
Jeffrey says:
I do that...I hope like that. So what? What does he think it means?
Justin says:
i don't know, but i like the observation. i do the same.
Jeffrey says:
It is a nice observation. But I could see it going either way: 1. See that is how deluded we really are...and we have nukes! or 2. See that is how fundamental hope is and how important.
Justin says:
i guess so
Jeffrey says:
I also really like Distopian Dream Girl, but I think I told you that.
Justin says:
that's from the same album.
Jeffrey says:
Wow. 'there's nothing wrong with love' is from 1994!
Justin says:
it's really a great album. excellent lyrics, excellent music. there's not a moment on it that stands out like some of the best moments on 'keep it like a secret' (the break on 'sidewalk,' the ends of 'time trap' and 'else,' the lyrics of 'you were right,' the entire song 'temporarily blind'), but it's still a solid piece of wonderful and memorable rock & roll.
Justin says:
yup
Jeffrey says:
Hmm
Justin says:
11 years ago. my how rock doesn't learn from its milestones.
Jeffrey says:
God we are in a time trap
Jeffrey says:
Has anything changed since 1997?
Jeffrey says:
Better has anything happened?
Jeffrey says:
Arcade Fire, I guess
Justin says:
i'd say the big change came after 96, when rock started actively embracing hip hop, although there were of course lots of acts to do so prior to 96.
Justin says:
since then, rock has just gotten worse and worse, in my opinion. this latest 'new wave revival' strikes me as another fashionable flash in the pan, like ska and swing in the mid 90s.
Jeffrey says:
ack
Justin says:
good guitar tones, though.
Jeffrey says:
Are you talking about bands like The Killers?
Justin says:
i wish people were thinking more about the present and future and not trying so hard to mimic the past.
Jeffrey says:
That is marketing for you. We know what has worked not what will work.
Justin says:
killers, franz ferdinand, the bravery, longwave, interpol... the list just goes on and on.
Jeffrey says:
I kinda like interpol. I've been listening to them
Jeffrey says:
And I guess Postal Service might get lumped into that, but I dig them special
Justin says:
one moment of genius in the 2000s has been 'i belive in a thing called love' by the darkness. when everyone was so busy looking back to 82, they looked back to 87. it was great. and a really great song, too!
Justin says:
yes
Jeffrey says:
I remeber talking to you about that one. A really nice moment.
Jeffrey says:
I like Interpol's 2004 CD Antics
Justin says:
i guess i just hate their stupid hairstyles, and insistence on the idiotic fashion of the time.
Justin says:
the hives are the same way, but i really dig their music. it's so kinetic, so hyper.
Jeffrey says:
Darkness did the best cheap trick impersonation ever
Jeffrey says:
There are two or three hives songs I really like too
Jeffrey says:
But just as you say, nothing really new
Jeffrey says:
I guess I said it too
Justin says:
exactly. i'd say weezer picked up where cheap trick left off, and the darkness where weezer did, after they became an undeveloped niche act.
Jeffrey says:
I never thought of weezer as the progeny of cheap trick, but I can see it!
Jeffrey says:
What I like is the goofy optimism that knows it's goofiness. The opposite of the plaintive What's so funny 'bout... I dig that too, but why not just embrace the silliness of love? It's something we can all relate to.
Justin says:
i'd agree. but of course, i'm a big fan of the music of the 50s. i like how ridiculous those songs sound now. i can't imagine a modern song sung from the perspective of a high schooler wherein the lyrics involve ( a ) asking a girl out to the prom ( b ) giving her a class ring ( c ) dying in a freak train wreck ( d ) watching us from heaven.
Justin says:
and yet, so many of the classics from the early days of rock tell such retarded stories, and in such campy ways. i love that period of music.
Jeffrey says:
I think that is the gold road: The trick is not to convince people to follow rules. It's that when you take love very seriously the little moments really matter. The fluttering of the heart is more important than the thong.
Justin says:
i guess you might say that those songs aren't self-aware enough, but i'd point to the fact that they were almost all penned by fat old men in their 40s.
Justin says:
the thong looks better on a video, though.
Jeffrey says:
They are aware of a certin kind of experience, just not aware of the teenage experience of love. There are songs that get close to it, though, I remember experiencing teenage longing though some of those songs.
Justin says:
jeez, it all comes back to earnestness. it's different than honesty. the blues is honest, but not earnest. don mclean is earnest but not honest.
Jeffrey says:
don mclean is earnest but not honest. Right
Justin says:
"i know that you're in love with him, 'cos i saw you dancing in the gym."
Justin says:
sure, you did.
Justin says:
buddy holly somehow manages both.
Jeffrey says:
That's true! Never thought of that.
Justin says:
he was serious about his geekiness.
Jeffrey says:
How many artists can you put in that category, both earnest and honest:
Jeffrey says:
Johnny Cash
Justin says:
well... i think i'd put him in more of the earnest, not honest category. i mean, did he really kill a man in reno? and if so, was it really just to watch him die?
Jeffrey says:
No he did not
Jeffrey says:
I withdraw the suggestion. So you can'
Jeffrey says:
tsorry
Jeffrey says:
can't be a third person artist and be honest?
Justin says:
just a joke. i think you may be right. when he asks "how high's the water, mamma?" i believe he probably asked such questions.
Jeffrey says:
I think we have to allow room for people who sing from the outside looking in to be honest
Jeffrey says:
Or is that the key point: that such a perspective is inherently dishonest
Justin says:
but it's not hard! i mean, just don't sing about stuff you don't really believe!
Justin says:
hmmmm
Justin says:
lack of consistent hallmark honesty isn't the same thing as dishonesty.
Justin says:
mindless rockers and rappers are often dishonest. but i wouldn't say that don mclean is dishonest. he just happened to find a comfy corner and never really left it.
Justin says:
i gotta do something real quick. brb.
Jeffrey says:
okay
Jeffrey says:
I guess I was just saying you don't have to be Shane MacGowan to sing honestly about down and out.
Justin says:
in other words, you don't have to be toothless to be a poet, but it helps.
Jeffrey says:
it helps to have scrapped a bit and drank a bit too much, sure
Jeffrey says:
www.shanemacgowan.com/pics/peaceman.jpg
Jeffrey says:
A face you can trust with your deepest values
Justin says:
what a strange looking man.
Jeffrey says:
indeed
Justin says:
have you ever seen this? www.imdb.com/title/tt0362751/ It's really great.
Jeffrey says:
heard of it, but not seen it. I think Shane is walking with God. How else could he still be alive?
Justin says:
perhaps
Jeffrey says:
www.pogues.com/ without shane though, I think
Jeffrey says:
New CD this year
Justin says:
in that movie, nick cave--who is one of his friends--talks about how jealous he is of shane's ability to stammer out truth. nick says that on his best days, he's really wrestling both with ideas and how to say them--and it's apparent in the final analysis. shane is more honest and eloquent without consciousness or the ability to stand up and not piss himself.
Jeffrey says:
No, it looks like he is still with the band www.pogues.com/Print/blogmahone.html#sep4
Jeffrey says:
What stops him do you think? What does his superego do to him that hurts his art?
Justin says:
nick cave?
Jeffrey says:
Shane
Justin says:
i don't know that anything does stop him.
Jeffrey says:
Is he just shy by nature or shomething?
Jeffrey says:
You made it sound as if his art needed to be lubricated.
Justin says:
cave's main problem is his lack of talent. i love him, don't get me wrong. he's a genius, but he's just not got enough musicianship to pour out of a boot.
Justin says:
no, shane is honest all times. what i mean is that nick said that he can spew forth mastery at all points along the continuum of sobriety.
Jeffrey says:
nick says that on his best days: Nick's best days or Shane's
Jeffrey says:
I thought you meant shane's
Justin says:
on nick's best days, he can't write his way out of a thought.
Justin says:
on shane's worst days, vomit is interspersed with wisdom.
Jeffrey says:
I see
Jeffrey says:
The Pogues sure have some wonderfully written tunes. I don't know enough about Cave. I know like 3 or 4 of his songs.
Justin says:
i am a big nick cave fan, of course, but his limits are very apparent.
Justin says:
when he's at his best, his songs alternate between a visceral yet delicious darkness and real human love.
Jeffrey says:
I think I like artists best who take the nose dives then pull out
Justin says:
here are the lyrics to one of my very favorite nick cave songs, called 'love letter':
Justin says:
I hold this letter in my hand
A plea, a petition, a kind of prayer
I hope it does as I have planned
Losing her again is more than I can bear
I kiss the cold, white envelope
I press my lips against her name
Two hundred words. We live in hope
The sky hangs heavy with rain
Love Letter Love Letter
Go get her Go get her
Love Letter Love Letter
Go tell her Go tell her
Justin says:
A wicked wind whips up the hill
A handful of hopeful words
I love her and I always will
The sky is ready to burst
Said something I did not mean to say
Said something I did not mean to say
Said something I did not mean to say
It all came out the wrong way
Love Letter Love letter
Go get her Go get her
Love Letter Love letter
Go tell her Go tell her
Justin says:
Rain your kisses down upon me
Rain your kisses down in storms
And for all who'll come before me
In your slowly fading forms
I'm going out of my mind
Will leave me standing in
The rain with a letter and a prayer
Whispered on the wind
Come back to me
Come back to me
O baby please come back to me
Jeffrey says:
My favorite line: "And for all who'll come before me"
Jeffrey says:
Who will come before
Justin says:
double meaning, ennit?
Jeffrey says:
Love it
Jeffrey says:
Makes me think he waited a while to write
Jeffrey says:
That's a nice song
Justin says:
the music is great, too
Jeffrey says:
Really wish I could be a tuesday night's concert
Justin says:
i'm hoping it will be as good a show as the other time i've seen them.
Jeffrey says:
I imagine that it will be great.
Jeffrey says:
How ever it turns out, that is what I'll imagine
Justin says:
i just hope that they focus more on their older stuff. the last album was a real dud
Justin says:
i'm surprised, but they've even been announcing the show on the radio!
Jeffrey says:
Have they released a CD better than Keep it like a secret?
Jeffrey says:
hard to imagine...
Justin says:
i really think 'there's nothing wrong with love' is a phenomenal album. i probably like it a little better than 'secret.'
Jeffrey says:
wow
Jeffrey says:
I'll have to pirate it! AARG
Justin says:
but the latter is definitely more accessible, slicker, and just packed to the hilt with great songs.
Jeffrey says:
I listened to it again this week
Justin says:
i think i've played you several songs from it.
Jeffrey says:
Still great. A little piece of greatness out there just hanging out. ... I remember the song about the abandoned love
Jeffrey says:
I liked it a lot, though I've forgotten the titme
Jeffrey says:
title
Justin says:
twin falls
Jeffrey says:
great title
Justin says:
the images of childhood in that song are great.
Jeffrey says:
It has about three meanings
Justin says:
exactly!
Justin says:
Christmas, twin falls, idaho is her oldest memory
she was only two
it was the first time she felt blue
Cafeteria, harrison elementary
beneath a parachute
i saw her without shoes
7up i touched her thumb and she knew it was me
although she couldn't see
unless of course she peeked
My mom's good she got me out of twin falls, idaho
before i got too old
you know how that goes
Justin says:
that's where she still was the summer she turned 17
in 1983, three weeks after me
last i heard was she had twins or maybe it was three
although i've never seen
but that don't bother me
Jeffrey says:
What CD is Velvet Waltz on? I like that tune, too.
Justin says:
perfect from now on.
Justin says:
not such a great record. i really like about 4 of the songs--and there aren't very many--but overall, i'd say the versions of some of those same songs on 'live' are much better.
Jeffrey says:
That's such an ambivalent song.
Jeffrey says:
The speaker's twin, right?
Jeffrey says:
Two selves.
Justin says:
twin falls?
Justin says:
or velvet waltz?
Justin says:
i assume you mean the former.
Jeffrey says:
right TF
Justin says:
yes, it's very ambivalent. in fact, the last line really bothers me. fortunately, the time i saw them in denton, he changed it to 'only in my dreams,' which was much more humane.
Jeffrey says:
More humane, but I think the other line is more powerful. And it really brings the rest of the song into a stark relief. We really do have this tendency to romanticize that obscures our own failures. I guess I like it either way, though
Justin says:
i hear you, but i don't like it when he comes off like an asshole. it works for some lyricists, but i don't think so for him.
Justin says:
there's another song on that album with equally off-putting, potentially sexist lyrics.
Justin says:
maybe even two.
Jeffrey says:
When Randy Newman says I he could be talking about anyone in the world. But not Martsch, He does seem to be much more autoboigraphical
Justin says:
i think so, too. and many of his songs are accusatory of some 'you.'
Justin says:
in those cases, i usually get the feeling that he's talking about me, the listener.
Justin says:
"do you *ever* think about it?" meaning, do you even listen to the lyrics of the songs you like?
Jeffrey says:
He does collect people under the label. Second person plural, a lot. You were right, for instance.
Jeffrey says:
We referenced the same song, where he uses you collectively in two different ways
Jeffrey says:
Interesting
Justin says:
well, that song is a song where he really only sings his point of view, saying "This is right, This is wrong," and yet he uses the word 'you' quite frequently in it.
Justin says:
doesn't say 'i' at all, in fact.
Jeffrey says:
I know
Justin says:
check these out:
Jeffrey says:
But I thought he said You were right, refering to a sort of personified Rock Music. Then at the end, as you say, he seems to be addressing the audience
Justin says:
Since my fling with you
time went from popping off three times a day
to popping off three times a week
and it takes me a long time
to come to the memory of us
One week later there's Melody
doing what i always waited for
and i didn't stop her
but i didn't lead her on
Jeffrey says:
Changing the referent of his plural you
Justin says:
so, who's the 'you' who gets it wrong in saying, "everything's going to be all right?" bob marley???
Justin says:
personified rock music?
Justin says:
the audience?
Jeffrey says:
Rock Music
Jeffrey says:
Monolithic
Jeffrey says:
It is a single confused voice
Jeffrey says:
Heck, I could be wrong
Justin says:
i think you're right, that's the idea i always got from it, but it's a little ambiguous.
Jeffrey says:
sure
Jeffrey says:
Those lyrics are disturbing
Justin says:
well, definitely carnal.
Jeffrey says:
Lazy Love
Jeffrey says:
His very conception of time is something someone else is responsible for
Justin says:
It happens all the time, this lazy love of mine.
Jeffrey says:
How can you blame him for falling into the arms of another
Jeffrey says:
He was defeated by space and time
Jeffrey says:
And he never even took up arms!
Jeffrey says:
The whole thing seems like a justification
Justin says:
the fact that we're talking about his lyrics is sign that rock music isn't all just jocular bravado and brainless sex references. so, i'm glad 'it' is right every now and again.
Jeffrey says:
Blame and responsibility always in the back ground.
Jeffrey says:
me too
Justin says:
here's a great line from another song from 'there's nothing wrong with love':
Justin says:
When you see a documentary and know the outcome
and that it's fucked
you still hope hitler will blow up
and that kennedy will duck
Justin says:
oh, by the way, that first song is called 'Fling' and this last one is called 'The Source.'
Jeffrey says:
I do that...I hope like that. So what? What does he think it means?
Justin says:
i don't know, but i like the observation. i do the same.
Jeffrey says:
It is a nice observation. But I could see it going either way: 1. See that is how deluded we really are...and we have nukes! or 2. See that is how fundamental hope is and how important.
Justin says:
i guess so
Jeffrey says:
I also really like Distopian Dream Girl, but I think I told you that.
Justin says:
that's from the same album.
Jeffrey says:
Wow. 'there's nothing wrong with love' is from 1994!
Justin says:
it's really a great album. excellent lyrics, excellent music. there's not a moment on it that stands out like some of the best moments on 'keep it like a secret' (the break on 'sidewalk,' the ends of 'time trap' and 'else,' the lyrics of 'you were right,' the entire song 'temporarily blind'), but it's still a solid piece of wonderful and memorable rock & roll.
Justin says:
yup
Jeffrey says:
Hmm
Justin says:
11 years ago. my how rock doesn't learn from its milestones.
Jeffrey says:
God we are in a time trap
Jeffrey says:
Has anything changed since 1997?
Jeffrey says:
Better has anything happened?
Jeffrey says:
Arcade Fire, I guess
Justin says:
i'd say the big change came after 96, when rock started actively embracing hip hop, although there were of course lots of acts to do so prior to 96.
Justin says:
since then, rock has just gotten worse and worse, in my opinion. this latest 'new wave revival' strikes me as another fashionable flash in the pan, like ska and swing in the mid 90s.
Jeffrey says:
ack
Justin says:
good guitar tones, though.
Jeffrey says:
Are you talking about bands like The Killers?
Justin says:
i wish people were thinking more about the present and future and not trying so hard to mimic the past.
Jeffrey says:
That is marketing for you. We know what has worked not what will work.
Justin says:
killers, franz ferdinand, the bravery, longwave, interpol... the list just goes on and on.
Jeffrey says:
I kinda like interpol. I've been listening to them
Jeffrey says:
And I guess Postal Service might get lumped into that, but I dig them special
Justin says:
one moment of genius in the 2000s has been 'i belive in a thing called love' by the darkness. when everyone was so busy looking back to 82, they looked back to 87. it was great. and a really great song, too!
Justin says:
yes
Jeffrey says:
I remeber talking to you about that one. A really nice moment.
Jeffrey says:
I like Interpol's 2004 CD Antics
Justin says:
i guess i just hate their stupid hairstyles, and insistence on the idiotic fashion of the time.
Justin says:
the hives are the same way, but i really dig their music. it's so kinetic, so hyper.
Jeffrey says:
Darkness did the best cheap trick impersonation ever
Jeffrey says:
There are two or three hives songs I really like too
Jeffrey says:
But just as you say, nothing really new
Jeffrey says:
I guess I said it too
Justin says:
exactly. i'd say weezer picked up where cheap trick left off, and the darkness where weezer did, after they became an undeveloped niche act.
Jeffrey says:
I never thought of weezer as the progeny of cheap trick, but I can see it!
Jeffrey says:
What I like is the goofy optimism that knows it's goofiness. The opposite of the plaintive What's so funny 'bout... I dig that too, but why not just embrace the silliness of love? It's something we can all relate to.
Justin says:
i'd agree. but of course, i'm a big fan of the music of the 50s. i like how ridiculous those songs sound now. i can't imagine a modern song sung from the perspective of a high schooler wherein the lyrics involve ( a ) asking a girl out to the prom ( b ) giving her a class ring ( c ) dying in a freak train wreck ( d ) watching us from heaven.
Justin says:
and yet, so many of the classics from the early days of rock tell such retarded stories, and in such campy ways. i love that period of music.
Jeffrey says:
I think that is the gold road: The trick is not to convince people to follow rules. It's that when you take love very seriously the little moments really matter. The fluttering of the heart is more important than the thong.
Justin says:
i guess you might say that those songs aren't self-aware enough, but i'd point to the fact that they were almost all penned by fat old men in their 40s.
Justin says:
the thong looks better on a video, though.
Jeffrey says:
They are aware of a certin kind of experience, just not aware of the teenage experience of love. There are songs that get close to it, though, I remember experiencing teenage longing though some of those songs.
Justin says:
jeez, it all comes back to earnestness. it's different than honesty. the blues is honest, but not earnest. don mclean is earnest but not honest.
Jeffrey says:
don mclean is earnest but not honest. Right
Justin says:
"i know that you're in love with him, 'cos i saw you dancing in the gym."
Justin says:
sure, you did.
Justin says:
buddy holly somehow manages both.
Jeffrey says:
That's true! Never thought of that.
Justin says:
he was serious about his geekiness.
Jeffrey says:
How many artists can you put in that category, both earnest and honest:
Jeffrey says:
Johnny Cash
Justin says:
well... i think i'd put him in more of the earnest, not honest category. i mean, did he really kill a man in reno? and if so, was it really just to watch him die?
Jeffrey says:
No he did not
Jeffrey says:
I withdraw the suggestion. So you can'
Jeffrey says:
tsorry
Jeffrey says:
can't be a third person artist and be honest?
Justin says:
just a joke. i think you may be right. when he asks "how high's the water, mamma?" i believe he probably asked such questions.
Jeffrey says:
I think we have to allow room for people who sing from the outside looking in to be honest
Jeffrey says:
Or is that the key point: that such a perspective is inherently dishonest
Justin says:
but it's not hard! i mean, just don't sing about stuff you don't really believe!
Justin says:
hmmmm
Justin says:
lack of consistent hallmark honesty isn't the same thing as dishonesty.
Justin says:
mindless rockers and rappers are often dishonest. but i wouldn't say that don mclean is dishonest. he just happened to find a comfy corner and never really left it.
Justin says:
i gotta do something real quick. brb.
Jeffrey says:
okay
Jeffrey says:
I guess I was just saying you don't have to be Shane MacGowan to sing honestly about down and out.
Justin says:
in other words, you don't have to be toothless to be a poet, but it helps.
Jeffrey says:
it helps to have scrapped a bit and drank a bit too much, sure
Jeffrey says:
www.shanemacgowan.com/pics/peaceman.jpg
Jeffrey says:
A face you can trust with your deepest values
Justin says:
what a strange looking man.
Jeffrey says:
indeed
Justin says:
have you ever seen this? www.imdb.com/title/tt0362751/ It's really great.
Jeffrey says:
heard of it, but not seen it. I think Shane is walking with God. How else could he still be alive?
Justin says:
perhaps
Jeffrey says:
www.pogues.com/ without shane though, I think
Jeffrey says:
New CD this year
Justin says:
in that movie, nick cave--who is one of his friends--talks about how jealous he is of shane's ability to stammer out truth. nick says that on his best days, he's really wrestling both with ideas and how to say them--and it's apparent in the final analysis. shane is more honest and eloquent without consciousness or the ability to stand up and not piss himself.
Jeffrey says:
No, it looks like he is still with the band www.pogues.com/Print/blogmahone.html#sep4
Jeffrey says:
What stops him do you think? What does his superego do to him that hurts his art?
Justin says:
nick cave?
Jeffrey says:
Shane
Justin says:
i don't know that anything does stop him.
Jeffrey says:
Is he just shy by nature or shomething?
Jeffrey says:
You made it sound as if his art needed to be lubricated.
Justin says:
cave's main problem is his lack of talent. i love him, don't get me wrong. he's a genius, but he's just not got enough musicianship to pour out of a boot.
Justin says:
no, shane is honest all times. what i mean is that nick said that he can spew forth mastery at all points along the continuum of sobriety.
Jeffrey says:
nick says that on his best days: Nick's best days or Shane's
Jeffrey says:
I thought you meant shane's
Justin says:
on nick's best days, he can't write his way out of a thought.
Justin says:
on shane's worst days, vomit is interspersed with wisdom.
Jeffrey says:
I see
Jeffrey says:
The Pogues sure have some wonderfully written tunes. I don't know enough about Cave. I know like 3 or 4 of his songs.
Justin says:
i am a big nick cave fan, of course, but his limits are very apparent.
Justin says:
when he's at his best, his songs alternate between a visceral yet delicious darkness and real human love.
Jeffrey says:
I think I like artists best who take the nose dives then pull out
Justin says:
here are the lyrics to one of my very favorite nick cave songs, called 'love letter':
Justin says:
I hold this letter in my hand
A plea, a petition, a kind of prayer
I hope it does as I have planned
Losing her again is more than I can bear
I kiss the cold, white envelope
I press my lips against her name
Two hundred words. We live in hope
The sky hangs heavy with rain
Love Letter Love Letter
Go get her Go get her
Love Letter Love Letter
Go tell her Go tell her
Justin says:
A wicked wind whips up the hill
A handful of hopeful words
I love her and I always will
The sky is ready to burst
Said something I did not mean to say
Said something I did not mean to say
Said something I did not mean to say
It all came out the wrong way
Love Letter Love letter
Go get her Go get her
Love Letter Love letter
Go tell her Go tell her
Justin says:
Rain your kisses down upon me
Rain your kisses down in storms
And for all who'll come before me
In your slowly fading forms
I'm going out of my mind
Will leave me standing in
The rain with a letter and a prayer
Whispered on the wind
Come back to me
Come back to me
O baby please come back to me
Jeffrey says:
My favorite line: "And for all who'll come before me"
Jeffrey says:
Who will come before
Justin says:
double meaning, ennit?
Jeffrey says:
Love it
Jeffrey says:
Makes me think he waited a while to write
Jeffrey says:
That's a nice song
Justin says:
the music is great, too
