3.5 Rules

[Betterout]

Oh, and by the way, it's always bothered me that players have the luxury of taking however long they wish to construct very elaborate and detailed plans in the declaration phase of combat or it's 3.X equivalent.

"Okay, I'll use my free action to kick this ball of twine that's tied to foot over to you. You pick it up, and then we'll take a five foot step into the line of combat, and when the charging minotaur looks down and realizes he's going to trip over it, then Ray lights him up with a lightning bolt, and Sharon Jean lays into him with her Crossbow of Lightspeed!"

"Hells yeah! (to DM) That's what we do, okay?"

We really are talking about 6 seconds here. If the players can whip up ridiculously complicated plans, prepare for them, and carry them out in that short window of time (which in reality would sound strange, since the plans often take more than six seconds to explain), then DM (who is one person, without a foil for bouncing ideas off of) should give all the NPCs big combat bonuses just to be fair.

[CaptAdam]

Hey, Betterout. I do agree with you, but as I've always understood DnD is it's like a movie come to life and in the movies these complex senerios do happen (called corigraphing sorry for the spelling). I know since most of my Martial Art techs work best under ideal situations, now I can still make them work just not as smoothly or I have to make inproves in the middle of a tech to still come out on top of my opponent.

But coregraph it an I look like Bruce lee, Jet lee, Chuck Norris and Chakie Chan all rolled up into one. I'm unstoppable the anicient one who holds all the answers.

I agree it's not fair to the DM he should have and extra person to play the NPCs or to bounce ideas off of. I've always though that would be fun to work with the DM just for the combat stuff. You think Jeff has given us hell in the past with trick scenerios just wait till Ja'Gar is working for him to drop you do goods where you stand. Be like shoot fish in a barrel.

Not sure if that's what co-DMing is all about or not, but hey I'm game if Jeff is. let him tell the story and then let me help him with the blood bath that's sure to fallow, you won't bleed much, really I promise. Ha, Ha, Ha!!!

Pleasent dreams all.

[Tyler]

DnD is, at times, a combat simulation.
To be perfectly accurate, we'd have to model mass, gravity, windspeed, and even more nebulous things like luck and skill.

We are not trying to accurately model reality.

We are trying to make a combat simulation that is fun.
To that end...
It doesn't matter how fast the kobold is because his movement ability is offset by attacks of opportunity.
It doesn't matter where he is in relation to you because you don't need to know which way your facing. It is immaterial unless you have to face two opponents at once. At that point, it's important insofar as it gives the opponents advantage.

Initiative doesn't matter in slapping hands, because what's actually deciding the hit/not hit ratio is the person's plusses to hit versus the AC of the slapee's hands.

We fly through combat in 2nd editon but don't need to. Given the stats from both sides, in most cases you could write a program that would dictate the outcome because everyone is very limited in what they can do.
Combat is slower in 3rd edition when rules come into question. This doesn't have to happen, but the rules are in flux right now. If you know your character and know the rules, everything moves fast.
If I say to the DM: I move to here and hit an AC of 23 for 6 damage.
How is that slower than the 2nd edition version which is: "I move up to this kobold and hit an armor class of -2 for 6 damge"
Sometimes the combat is more complicated because there are more options.
You cannot tell me that a cleric being unable to use a dagger is not retarded.
You cannot tell me that Thac0 is comparatively retarded.
You cannot tell me that a wizard cannot cast a magic missile because he's wearing a leather pauldron without sounding retarded.
1st and 2nd had many many many many more inconsistencies in it than 3rd, and the inconsistencies in their combat systems were only dwarfed by the utter silliness of their character creation system.

The flaws of the skill system only come into play when someone tries to apply them where they shouldn't. If you use common sense with the idea of balance as opposed to realism being the deciding characteristic, then it never arises as a problem. I choose my skills based on character development, not game mechanics anyway. Kauth has a ton of points in concentration, even though Dave, at the outset of the game, got rid of it. It's because when I see him in combat, he moves deliberately, thinking over the tactical simulation. Also to this end, I put points in Knoledge:tactics. This skill doesen't even really exist in the game, but I think Kauth would have worked very hard to develop it after the first fight.
If application of skills seems to break down basic reason, then the DM hasn't applied enough negatives to the roll.

If you think people shouldn't have all the time in the world to formulate plans, then tell them "no plans, each person must come up with their plans independantly".

[Thanin]

First off, Adam, you know that Betterout is Justin and Thanin is David, right?

This has all been a sort of experiment. And by that I don’t mean that I haven’t been sincere. I’ve meant everything I’ve posted… although I think I went too far when I said Tyler just wants to argue with a DM. Anyway, what I wanted to do with this is see how things would be if I were a bit more of a proactive DM when it comes to the rules. This is 3.5 after all, the most rules based D&D ever. Personally, it’s not been something I’ve enjoyed. Don’t get me wrong, we’ve had some interesting debating about this and have said some insightful things. But I think it’s also served to further polarize the different sides and just caused hard feelings for some of us.

When I was first thinking about the initial problem that sparked all of this last Saturday night (which was also me deciding to be a more rules based DM, but not really wanting to be), my first thought was to go ahead and let everyone ready/delay their actions and I wouldn’t bother with a penalty aspect since I really don’t want to constantly alter the initiative structure once combat starts (though Mike, though being silly, has come up with another possible solution). But then I started thinking, ‘is that really what a DM more interested in deciding rules and wanting tactical balance within those rules would do? Wouldn’t they make a stand and make a declaration?’ So that’s what I did. To be honest, I don’t really care too much about all of it. It has nothing to do with story, plot, or character development. It’s just like what Jeff and Mike have said. We’re talking about an over the table system that’s only purpose is to be a medium for us to see what’s going on in our minds. And as they both point out, has potential to sap the imagination right out of the encounter, whether it’s fighting with an NPC or interrogating one.

So what’s the resolution? Was all of this worth anything? Should I continue to be this proactive with the rules? Because I don’t really enjoy this.

[mike]

David (and everybody else),

I thought everybody was having fun spouting opinions about a really unimportant matter. If you hate rules discussions, here's a solution and I'm actually not trying to make mischief in offering it. We could just play 3.5 as written. I'd say disallow all the books outside the PHB and DM's guide while grandfathering in Josh's character who would be the only one who could use them. Then discussions of the sort you hate so much would end. For my part, I'm done kidding on this topic and trying to stir up mischief. I don't take back any of my criticisms of 3.5, but really don't care. Severin is never going to be sucked into the kind of strategizing and power-mongering that so sickens me under that system. If he gets jobbed by some lame skill or feat or arcane combat oddity, hooray. He's supposed to be a loser.

I can't wait to take the feat "athleticism" so he can swim and climb better. Woohoo! But in my imagination, he isn't athletic until he has that feat, by god! Thank goodness for 3.5's much more sophisticated character generation system. When I generated Severin, I had to choose between his being athletic and being tough. I knew he was tough, but wanted him to be athletic. He wasn't athletic before, but he's about to be. And that's pretty important. Okay, that's my last snide dig at 3.5 and all its excellent virtues such as making up rules on what I imagine my character is like and calling them "character generation options." I'm done now, and I feel a little better.

[Jeff]

I promise to shut up too, especially since I'm not even playing this game and I promised to do so 2 posts ago. Sorry guys.

Tyler: I know it takes two opponents to flank. I was streamlining the discussion a bit by omitting the rest of the kobalds that inhabit my imagination--and in the damnedest places, too. Anyway, I didn't mean to be unclear. The point, I think, still stands.

As for the AoO, imagine your character is 1st level and though most of my kobalds are 1st level too, you are trying to keep your eye on their 20th level leader--for obvious reasons. Again, the point stands, I believe.

You wrote:

"You cannot tell me that a cleric being unable to use a dagger is not retarded.
You cannot tell me that Thac0 is comparatively retarded.
You cannot tell me that a wizard cannot cast a magic missile because he's wearing a leather pauldron without sounding retarded."

Quite right. And I never would.

Shutting up, Sir!

Jeff

[mike]

In edition 2.0, Priests of Coyote can use daggers. Gee, imagine a version of D&D with so much flexibility in generating PCs that literally anything is possible and DMs and players are encouraged to customize classes. Wow!

THAC0 isn't the least bit retarded. It's far faster than 1.0's charts and 3.5's drab, rule-bound folly. Tell me you're actually struggling with it Friday night, and I'll role play using a Marlon Brando voice this entire coming weekend. Okay, it'll really be me doing Chris Elliott doing Marlon Brando.

Meester Tyler, there are some rather large circles where having an opinion about casting magic missiles in a pauldron of any kind would be considered a little retarded.

[Thanin]

I definitely don't want anyone to 'shut up' about stuff. My only concern is if any of this is helping or not. Since no one actively addressed what I had to say about being more focused on the rules, I'm lead to believe that it isn't all that important to anyone else either, so I'm going to go back to the way I was before; less interested in the intricacies of the mechanics and mainly care about story/plot.

[CaptAdam]

Yes, dave I had guessed correctly that you where Thanin and Justin was Betterout, still not sure about some of the others aside form the obivious. Not sure who I have actually met face to face and who are just email personalities.

I like all of your comments, by the way, even if I don't have the lastest editions so I'm out of the loop on some of your discussions and all.

But my offer to Jeff also extends to You dave if you like, I could help you devise stratagies that would stop Tyler in his tracks or at the very least slow him down. Cause like Tyler I love Stratagies, but I've always loved background creation and good roll playing even more. Even with me not being their in person, given enough info on each character and the NPC's or Monsters that you use I could help you create traps and stratagies or even just let you bounce ideas off of me for sujjestions on how you could deal with fight scenerios.

No DM should be alone against such terrible forces such as Tyler (Sorry T, but hey someone has to put... I mean take you down for the good of the world).

Not sure if this is of any help, but hey I may be Old and out of touch with your realities, but I'm still a viable resorce who is willing to help even if it's just a voice on email.

[Tyler]

archive.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/ffn/ffn083.htm